A [TEXT MESSAGE] Conversation With Writer Mychal Denzel Smith
The Writing Process, Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles, Family, Music, and Virginia
A [BLANK] Conversation With… is an interview series where guests engage in a three-day conversation via their preferred mode of text-based communication, with no commitments to the length or frequency of their responses.
Time is so strange that it is now too cliché to comment on. I believe I first met renowned essayist,
, about a year ago (though it could be two) at a baby shower for a mutual friend. And, if memory serves me (which it often does, only not well) we had already been following each other for a few months at that point on the social media app formerly known as Twitter. Somehow, we immediately clicked. So much so, that I wanted to interview him in this series despite having not consumed most of his work. He’s simply a great person that I love hanging out with.For the uninitiated, Mychal is the author of the New York Times bestseller Invisible Man, Got the Whole World Watching and Stakes Is High (winner of the 2020 Kirkus Prize for Nonfiction). He is a Puffin Fellow at Type Media Center, and Distinguished Writer-in-Residence at Hunter College. Smith is host of the podcast “Open Form” on LitHub Radio. His work has appeared in the New York Times, Washington Post, Harper’s, Artforum, Oxford American, New Republic, The Nation, and more. In 2014 and 2016, TheRoot.com named him one of the 100 Most Influential African-Americans in their annual The Root 100 list. He was also a 2017 NAACP Image Award Nominee.
If you assumed that I copied and pasted that from the bio on his website, you are correct.
I wasn’t sure what to expect from this text exchange. But, as our conversation progressed, I realized that I was attempting to figure out how a person goes about becoming a recognized writer and thinker who focuses on our reality instead of fiction. And more so, what does it even mean to be a recognized writer and thinker? You know… they type of person who ends up on The Daily Show —
…or Democracy Now! —
…to help bring context to our lives.
Here lies my three-day text message conversation with Mychal Denzel Smith.
Enjoy… Oh! And if you don’t like curse words or explicit content or whatever phrase you prefer that defines that kind of thing, this is your warning:
There are swear words in this chat!
TABLE OF CONVERSATION:
The Writing Process, Virginia, and Music…
Reader Feedback, Outlining, and Taking Care of Family…
Friendship, Therapy, and Ninja Turtles
Note: Mychal and Tim live on the East Coast, so each text is timestamped in Eastern Standard Time. However, certain reactions like “iPhone haha”s and ❤️s exist out of time. We have no way of retrospectively knowing exactly when those buttons were pressed. There have been minor adjustments of the text for clarity.
DAY 1 (Tuesday 08-01-2023)
Tim Barnes: (11:46AM) Mychal! How goes it?! I just remembered that this is the first day of our text interview Mychael Denzel Smith: (11:50AM) Tim! It goes! I’m glad you remembered because I’ve been looking forward to it and also I can’t remember anything these days Tim: (11:51AM) Is that because of the baby? Mychael: (11:53AM) Definitely a huge part of it. There’s room for very little else in my head, feels like (11:54AM) I swore I wasn’t gonna become one of those people that only ever talks about their kid, but turns out this is an inevitability of parenthood Tim: (11:58AM) I mean, how can anyone blame you?! I’ve always felt like parents understand something really deep that non-parents could never really comprehend. Like, when I work with assholes who have mouths to feed, I let their assholery slide a little more. I have no idea how their minds work (11:58AM) How much has the baby changed your schedule? Is there any consistency to it or does it just sort of evolve day-to-day? Mychal: (12:00PM) Oh sweet, I didn’t even think of it as an excuse to be an asshole, I haven’t been living my full potential [Tim gives this an iPhone "HaHa"] (12:02PM) She just started with a nanny three days a week, and Carmel just went back to work, so my schedule is only now coming into focus, even though it’ll shift again once school starts up. So I’d say it’s consistent for about a week or two, then my schedule rearranges… and that’s basically my life until she’s in kindergarten I guess? Tim: (12:07PM) Wow, I just googled “What age do you start kindergarten?” — that’s, like, five years away! (12:08PM) Do you do a lot of big picture planning or do you find it easier to focus on the present and move step by step? Mychal: (12:11PM) I’m so bad at big picture planning, and I have to do better about that. It’s so much easier for me to focus on what’s right in front of me, but then it’s like… the future becomes the present and I’m not prepared (12:12PM) Are you a big picture planner? (12:14PM) (I say easier when what I really mean is safer—I’m scared to look into the future knowing I can’t control the outcome. This is becoming a therapy session, I’m so sorry Tim) Tim: (12:15PM) Hahaha, “free public therapy session” is a great description of these interviews (12:15PM) I try to be a big picture planner. Lately some of the bigger picture things I was relying on have fallen flat so now I’m constantly counter-planning. I’m kind of obsessed with trying to figure out the future — but in a way that’s way too big picture. It’s harder for me to concentrate on the moment. I’m unfortunately one of those people who only functions well when my day is pre-scheduled Mychal: (12:18PM) Oh yeah, I don’t like surprises or sudden shifts in a plan or spontaneity (I’m so much fun), I need to know what’s going on, but I think that’s why planning too far into the future becomes scary—I don’t know enough about that world to make a solid plan Tim: (12:22PM) And these days, the world just isn’t solid enough Mychal: (12:23PM) We’re literally melting, how am I supposed to plan for that??! Tim: (12:23PM) Hahaha (12:34PM) It’s funny — we met maybe a year ago at this point through a friend but quickly had this sort of connection where it felt like we would have hung out in middle school or something. You’re someone I look forward to cracking jokes with in the park or at the beach. But then every now and then I remember “Woah, Mychal is a legit published author and recognized thinker!” All of that to say, I constantly feel guilty for having not read one of your books yet. Anyway, what is the best word to describe what it is that you do? Mychal: (12:41PM) Ha, please don’t feel guilty, most people haven’t read my books — and judging by the sales this second, a lot of people don’t even know I’ve published two I just say I’m a writer — I leave it open because I can’t say for sure what form that will take. Journalism sometimes, mostly essays these days, but I dunno, I might try my hand at other mediums and wouldn’t want to feel pigeonholed. But I guess at core it’s really what am I writing about, and that pretty consistent: examining the ways power operates across race, gender, class, politically and culturally. Lots of stuff fits in there, but if I had to sum up my overall project, this would be my long winded way of doing so Tim: (12:58PM) Is there an original goal that got you to this place? Mychal: (1:02PM) Hmmmm… I dunno, it was like I read The Autobiography of Malcolm X, the Iraq War started, and it became clear the *kind* of person I wanted to be in the world, but that’s not really a goal, I don’t think. I’m a writer because that’s what I was told I was good at for long enough that I believed it, then never got good at anything else, so then it was a matter of how do I merge the kind of person I hope to be with the one marketable skill I have into a way to make a living Tim: (1:46PM) Okay, so yeah, this is very similar to getting into comedy. Only, in comedy you start out doing open mics, etc. Were there any equivalents to that for you? Mychal: (2:00PM) I wrote for my school newspaper in college, but the real training ground for my era was blogging. I never ran a successful blog on my own, even though I tried with an embarrassing blog I won’t name, but those early days of writing blogs for publications paying 100, 200 dollars a pop was where I got started. And that was only possible, for me, because of Twitter (RIP/good riddance). Those early days it was sold as “micro-blogging” and there was an exercise to it — trying to synthesize thoughts into 140 characters makes you precise and deliberate. (2:01PM) And I was OK at it enough to attract a following, gain some connections, get my career up and running. I’m thankful for it and also, god I hate whatever it’s become Tim: (2:08PM) It feels like we’re all waking up from this social media haze and trying to figure out what’s next. How often are you checking in on things like Twitter (X?) and Facebook now? Mychal: (2:10PM) I still check Twitter pretty regularly, it’s the way I understand what a slice of the world is talking about/interested in. But I don’t Tweet, or whatever it’s gonna be called now. I’m not good at it anymore. It morphed into something else a while ago and whatever skills I had didn’t carry over (2:13PM) I feel you on the waking up from the haze, but I think social media is so many things to people now I don’t know that it’s going anywhere. It’s more like people are searching for the one or two they feel they can trust—and not even in a “don’t give away my personal info to a corporate algorithm” way, but trust that they’re gonna be able to make the connections they want and know they’re solid Tim: (2:15PM) The constant evolution of social media services is something I think about a lot. I can’t even imagine what Facebook looked like when it started and even when I try to visualize present-day Facebook in my head it still feels so vague and blank. Remember when our avatars were squares instead of circles? Mychal: (2:16PM) Literally, no haha (2:16PM) Wait, when we’re they squares??? Tim: (2:17PM) On Facebook, Twitter, everywhere… (2:17PM) Profile pictures were square (2:18PM) I don’t remember when they changed Mychal: (2:18PM) I truly can’t remember them being anything but round, it’s all a blur [Tim gives this an iPhone "HaHa"] Tim: (2:18PM) But there’s something troubling about how intangible these platforms are. You can’t clock the changes the same way you can with the evolution of TV sets Mychal: (2:19PM) Facts, I remember the non-flat screen TVs vividly, but have no recollection of this square avatar business Tim: (2:21PM) I want to know so much about this old blog of yours. What about it was so embarrassing? Mychal: (2:26PM) The name was so cringe, I shudder to think I once had such bad taste, but it was a time of my life I thought I’d be a hip-hop critic and everyone was calling themselves nerds, and that’s all the allusion I’ll give Tim: (2:26PM) So this was your Childish Gambino era (2:27PM) Or, I suppose early Childish Gambino era (2:27PM) For a second there I wasn’t sure if Donald Glover still uses that name in his music Mychal: (2:27PM) Does he still make music? Tim: (2:28PM) Oh no… I just googled “when did ‘This Is America’ come out?” and the answer was “2018” (2:29PM) How is time moving so fast?! Mychal: (2:29PM) Listen, “ten years ago” still means 1999 mean, I have no clue where time has gone [Tim gives this an iPhone "HaHa"] (2:30PM) 1999 to me* Tim: (2:32PM) Were you a fan of his early stuff? I remember it making me cringe a bit. I loved him in those Derrick Comedy sketches, but some of those early songs felt like inside thoughts you should keep to yourself. I think he’s grown a lot since then (2:35PM) I hope that opinion doesn’t clash with one of your old blog posts Mychal: (2:38PM) He’s definitely grown a lot, that early aesthetic turned me off because it came across very “I’m different from other black people and they pick on me for it” Tim: (2:42PM) Which was impactful in a sense, because as someone who entertained some of those thoughts and opinions in my youth, hearing them expressed out loud made me understand how disturbing they were. (2:43PM) You grew up in Virginia, right? Mychal: (2:45PM) Yeah, I think that’s what bothered me the most—recognizing I was once one of those people — and then just wanting better for Donald (2:45PM) Virginia, yup, Virginia Beach to be exact Tim: (3:00PM) What’s Virginia Beach culture like? Mychal: (3:03PM) Oh, I’m writing a whole book to answer this question. It’s weird. We ended up there because my dad was in the navy, and that’s what it is for the most part, a military town. But it’s also a resort/vacation spot for a lot of people in the summertime. Then there’s a bunch of farmland, so it’s got rural elements to it… it’s kinda all over the place Tim: (3:15PM) Did that kind of feel like growing up in a theme park? Mychal: (3:17PM) It’s something I didn’t really notice until I was older. I spent most of the time hating that I didn’t live somewhere with more name/brand recognition (3:17PM) I wanted to be from a big city so badly Tim: (3:36PM) Is there any music, or creative work that feels specific to Virginia Beach? I wonder if the allure of big cities was just because of how much media they produce about themselves Mychal: (3:53PM) That was exactly it! But looking back, from about ‘96 on, Virginia Beach/the Hampton Roads area has had this massive influence on hip-hop/r&b/pop music, through Missy, Timbaland, and The Neptunes. In that timeframe, only Atlanta and New Orleans come to mind as matching or surpassing (3:54PM) But nobody put Virginia on their chest and repped it hard like those other places. It’s, at least for me, a place you wanna break away from, not pull other people toward Tim: (3:57PM) Ah, yes! Now I’m remembering your piece about this for The Atlantic
Read Mychal Denzel Smith’s piece for The Atlantic here:
Mychal: (4:00PM) Yeah, I’ve been writing about Virginia more and more these past few years (with book forthcoming), it’s interesting to think about it’s impact politically/culturally/historically and then how little it occupies the national imagination (4:02PM) Very different from your hometown Tim: (4:04PM) I feel like we talked about Bill Withers a few weeks back, because I love that “Still Bill” documentary about him but keep getting thrown off by how often it cuts to him chatting with Tavis Smiley and Cornell West in his back yard. Withers talking about growing up in West Virginia is all I think about when it comes to the state (4:05PM) And it’s all fascinating, and incredibly scary (4:16PM) Yeah, I’d say my hometown occupies too much of the national imagination. I think a lot of people there grow up trying to live up to hype of it all
(Still Bill, 2009, directed by Damani Baker and Alex Vlack)
Mychal: (4:57PM) Definitely too much, but I will admit I had the best taco of my life in LA Tim: (5:12PM) Hahaha (5:12PM) I’m just coming around to really understanding L.A. (5:12PM) Was it a street taco? Mychal: (5:28PM) They were sold in this guy’s grandma’s backyard, only available for like four hours. Longest line, best taco ever (5:31PM) What are you now understanding about LA? Tim: (5:42PM) It sounds crazy but I’m literally learning how to navigate it and what different areas are and mean, etc. Now. As a 34-year-old man. I think spending so much time away and feeling like an outsider from it all has helped. L.A. used to fill me with anxiety because I have so much family there. It just felt like obligations. And I was never really there during the fun parts of being a teenager and driving around/making parts of it feel like my own. But now when I visit I feel like an adult with my own shit to do, lol (5:57PM) What’s the writing process like for your new book? Mychal: (6:34PM) That has to be kinda liberating, no? To come home and fully do your own thing --> TIM DIRECTLY RESPONDS TO THIS TEXT LATER @ 7:07PM SAYING: "Yeah! It's great!" (6:36PM) I’ll let you know when I actually get started! I’m lagging on this one—that whole thing about the baby being born six months ago—but part of it is that it’s a much more research heavy endeavor than my previous books Tim: (7:11PM) I imagine one of the perks of blogging and social media is the endorphin boost you can get from posting something immediately compared to the longer process of writing an article, essay, or full on book. Do you enjoy the writing process? Mychal: (7:44PM) I don’t wanna overstate this, but I think I’m no longer drawn to the endorphin rush of the blog/social media post. It’s not satisfying on the same way it used to be. But for something I worked hard on, whether it’s a long magazine piece or a book, that feels good (7:45PM) As for the question of enjoying the process… it’s a mixed bag. It’s fucking hard. And there’s no getting around it being hard, unless you’re ok with making something awful (7:46PM) But at the end of it, having something I’m proud of, there’s not much better than that Tim: (7:58PM) Wait, so I shouldn’t title this interview “Mychal Denzel Smith Really Loves To Blog”? [Mychal gives this an iPhone "HaHa"] (8:00PM) Is it just a gut feeling you get when a piece is done? Do you ever get the urge to go back and change things like George Lucas with the special editions? Mychael: (8:36PM) I get the George Lucas impulse a lot, but I think you really have to let a finished and published thing live out on its own. Which is to say, if actually given the opportunity to George Lucas it and have a CGI Boba Fett, I wouldn’t do it. I can’t look at my first book now, knowing the writer I am now and how I would have want to have written it, but it’s it’s own thing and I have to allow it to be that. (8:37PM) I think there’s this fear that you’ll be defined by people’s ideas of the one piece of writing/art/whatever, and so you want it to be representative, but it can’t do any more than be the one creation among, hopefully, many
DAY 2 (Wednesday 08-02-2023)
Tim:
(11:09AM) Welcome to day two! I got caught up trying to find the right health insurance for our puppy last night and forgot to respond to your last two texts there. Still recovering from the fact that Figo pet insurance doesn’t cover cloning --
Mychal: (11:12AM) That’s just a gross oversight on their part, do they not know what kind of premiums they could charge if they covered cloning?? Not a smart business move [Tim gives this an iPhone "HaHa"] Tim: (11:16AM) The constant need to tinker, and fix, and re-edit is something I think about a lot. A growing number of things are never final. Game of Thrones erased the Starbucks cup, etc. But I’m worried less about how much we alter things and more about the lack of systems tracking the changes. How do you track the evolution of your writing style? Mychal: (11:22AM) Oh I’ve never thought of that question! I don’t know that I’ve done much to track it, externally, it’s more based on feeling that I’m doing something new. But it also comes back to that impulse to tinker—when I look back at my older work do I see things I’d do in a completely different way? If I’m content with it as is, I probably haven’t evolved much, but if I can see ways I’d like to change it then I must be in a different phase Tim: (11:36AM) There’s something very meditative about writing. It kind of give a theme to every day until the project is complete. Do you like that feeling? Do you feel like you rely on it? Mychal: (12:03PM) Oh man, I find basically everything *but* writing meditative. Writing is so fucking stressful Tim: (12:04PM) Hahaha, I guess it depends on the topic. I’m trying to finish writing a short story right now. And it’s only stressful because of this internal deadline I gave myself. But also the deadline is the only way I can make myself write. But before that deadline creeps up, I like having something specific to think about while I wash the dishes Mychal: (12:06PM) I wish I could let go more, allow myself to enjoy the process of turning over ideas, creating, thinking in new ways, but all of my perfectionism creeps in and I just stress myself out about getting it exactly right Tim: (12:07PM) So, you kind of attack the page when you write? Mychal: (12:08PM) I don’t even get to the page before it’s all laid out in my head, and then yeah, it’s basically a fight Tim: (12:11PM) Hahaha (12:11PM) Okay, this is the good stuff now (12:11PM) This is where all of the arts connect. That vague space before you’re doing the actual thing (12:12PM) Do you outline in your head or on the page? Mychael: (12:14PM) In my head, which makes anything longform a challenge, trying to hold the whole thing. I try to break it up into smaller chunks, but without seeing the whole thing I start feeling stuck Tim: (12:21PM) Sounds daunting, but also makes you sound like a genius Mychal: (12:22PM) That’s how I’m trying to present my public mythology Tim: (12:22PM) Hahaha (12:27PM) Are there moments when you aren’t thinking about the next piece of writing? Is it like standup where if you haven’t gone on stage for a week or two, you feel lost? Mychal: (12:29PM) Yeah, I’m always in process on something. I like having a book project going because it means there’s definitely something to come back to, but even with that I’m constantly generating other ideas. I just don’t have the time to follow through with all of them in the moment they hit me Tim: (12:50PM) Do you read mostly in print? Mychal: (12:51PM) Way more online these days, I only really read books in print, and I’m slacking on my book reading Tim: (12:56PM) Okay, I’m curious about this because I definitely read more online but it’s absolutely worse for me compared to print. It’ll take me a week to read an article because there are so many distractions but I feel like you’re probably more resilient Mychal: (1:04PM) Not at all haha I get easily distracted, end up reading two or three things at a time, reading while I’ve got a YouTube video or podcast playing, on and on (1:04PM) I have to be intentional, or something has to be so good it grabs me and I don’t want to look away Tim: (1:05PM) You have no idea how sane that just made me feel. We are not alone Mychal: (1:07PM) I wanna say it’s just the era we live in, but I can’t speak to how distracted someone might have been in 1923 or something Tim: (1:59PM) Is there anything you’ve written that you’d say was controversial or led to complex debates? (1:59PM) I mean, outside of the sphere of people who just don’t like anything about race relations in America (2:06PM) This interview will stop being so surface level soon, I promise Mychal: (2:13PM) Oh please, it’s surface it’s all my fault for not having great answers (2:14PM) But I don’t think I’ve touched to “spark debate” portion of my career, and who knows if I ever will (2:15PM) I did write about police abolition in 2014/15, then that finally came around as a national topic in 2020, but I can’t take responsibility for that Tim: (3:55PM) I’m trying to remember the headspace of 2014/2015. Was that one of those scenarios where it’s best to ignore the comments completely? Mychal: (6:16PM) The delay in response has been brought to you by picking up the baby, doing daily grandma call, getting her dinner, a bath, final bottle, and off to bed (6:16PM) I learned early not to read the comments, truly no good can come of it from anything. Only then the comments section moved to Twitter and it was a little harder to escape (6:17PM) For that piece though, not enough people read/shared it to have much of an impact, and the people who were already reading me were down to get on the abolition train Tim: (6:35PM) Ah, no worries. I was on a trek taking the puppy to the vet. How long have you been doing the daily grandma calls? Mychal: (6:39PM) Since she was born! Got to be twice a day for a little while there. My mom’s first grandchild, plus she’s been dealing with cancer this past year… she’s the emotional support baby Tim: (6:56PM) I’m sorry to hear about her cancer battle. Does the baby give you two way more to talk about? Mychal (6:59PM) Oh she isn’t talking to me during these calls, her full attention is on her granddaughter hahaha Tim: (7:00PM) That’s great (7:00PM) You’re really doing the full adulting thing Mychal: (7:00PM) But there is lots to talk about, and lots of notes to compare, parenting wisdom of yesteryear versus today (7:01PM) It reaaaallllly accelerates the adulthood feeling when you’ve got a little baby plus aging/sick parent. You’re looking around like “shit, somebody needs to take care of this stuff” and the somebody is now you (7:02PM) My brother is doing 99.9% of the care work for my mom tho, I can’t take credit Tim: (7:39PM) I’ve faced a few similar things lately, but not to that extent. Did you feel relatively prepared when it came to that “someone needs to take care of this stuff” feeling? Mychal: (7:42PM) Not when I stopped to take stock of the fact it was happening. At first it’s just like things need doing, do them. Then suddenly the weight of those things starts becoming clear and it turns to “oh shit I am not prepared for this” (7:42PM) Still, gotta do it Tim: (8:32PM) It feels like a divine duty in some ways though, doesn’t it? I had some really surreal experiences helping out with my grandpa earlier this year. Certain things just kicked in. Felt good in a weird way to be anchored by the weight of such serious things. Has being a father made you understand your parents a little more? Mychal: (8:36PM) It’s exactly that, this sacred responsibility, to be a caretaker for your people, to love them hard… we got nothing if we don’t have that (8:39PM) I don’t know if I’d say I understand my parents more… I dunno, I feel like I came to understand them pretty well before I became a father. I understand more that the stress of parenthood is unlike any other I’ve experienced up to this point, so there’s maybe a little more grace extended to them, but there’s still so much about the way I was brought up that I’m like “nah, disagree, understand your point of view, but still disagree hard” (8:40PM) I’m only six months into it tho, so who knows if I’ll have a change of heart
DAY 3 (Thursday 08-03-2023)
Tim: (11:28AM) Day three! I feel like I left you yesterday on a really ominous note. Are there specific things you think you’ll do differently as a parent? Also — speaking of taking things one day at a time, do you ever get freaked out pondering what Ruby will be like when she gets older? Mychal: (11:49AM) That part excites me! She’s growing this personality, and who knows how much is nature vs nurture, but every day I get to see this person take shape and I have no idea who she’ll become, but I can’t wait. She’s already so special (11:51AM) As far as what I’ll do differently — I know there’s some traps we all fall in, that we revert back to what we know when things get difficult, but I know for certain I’m committed to being a parent who doesn’t yell or spank or call my child bad for any reason. I just won’t do that (11:52AM) I also want to apologize. I witnessed a friend of mine apologize to their kids for something and I got so weepy, just like whoa, who would I be now if I’d heard that from my parents growing up (11:53AM) Cuz ducking up is an inevitability, but I think parents get protective of the idea of themselves as the authority, and to admit fault might undermine that (11:54AM) But like… you know you fucked up, your kids know you fucked up, isn’t everyone better off if you just say it? Commit to not fucking up in the same way later? For all the things about teaching responsibility, I feel like that’s probably more effective than all the harsh/violent disciplining Tim: (12:16PM) Yeah, I definitely understand all of that. Oddly, I owe Oprah for ending spankings for me. My mom worked in a hair salon and Oprah was always on the Tv there after school. I remember an episode where (I definitely might be making this up, who knows) she just looked into camera and and told Black kids to tell their parents about the connection between whoopings and slavery. So.. I did that! And my dad was shocked. I used my first race card—and it was in my own Black dad. It worked. (12:17PM) How do you think those parenting techniques impacted your personality? Mychal: (12:17PM) I feel like you need to write a book based solely on this one anecdote, that is absolutely incredible [Tim gives this an iPhone "HaHa"] (12:20PM) I think for a long, long time I found myself to be timid, non-confrontational, people pleasing, highly worried about making a mistake of any size… not that I don’t recognize that as part of my personality now, but I’m more aware of it. But it traces back to this sense of fear of the consequences, never know what was correct behavior and what would result in a spanking or even some demoralizing screaming (12:22PM) I tried molding myself around what would make other people comfortable, not illicit any anger, because anger is not just an emotion among other emotions to me, it’s viscerally linked to violence Tim: (12:35PM) Damn, I really identify with that. Not sure what the exact causes were for me though. I wasn’t spanked or yelled at so much. But I did feel the pressure of the label of being a “good kid.” I think religion maybe had more to do with it. I was very concerned by all of the rules. And even more concerned about why so many people telling me those rules were breaking them (12:35PM) The comfort thing is definitely a skill that can get you far. But it’s very suffocating Mychal: (12:37PM) Your family was/is super religious? Tim: (12:37PM) Yeah, faith and religion is big (12:40PM) I don’t have a lot of anger about it, but it took a lot of mental gymnastics just to step out a bit, see the whole picture , and ask the major questions like, “Why is T.D. Jakes sweating so much?” And, “What does the ‘T.D.’ even stand for?” [Mychal gives this an iPhone "HaHa"] Mychal: (12:41PM) Oh damn, you were getting hit with that prosperity gospel too Tim: (12:45PM) Hahaha, all kinds of gospels. We went to a nondenominational church. But the extended family is huge and I have Baptist family members, etc. Definitely a lot of TBN… There are some splits on my dads side with people who converted to Islam. Mychal: (12:46PM) Ooh, how’d that go over? Tim: (12:49PM) Those splits happened before I was born. I’d love to know more about it though. I had an uncle who knew Malcolm X. The thing about devout people though… they really know their books. No way around respecting that. I memorize Lord of the Rings quotes, they memorize Bible verses Mychal: (12:53PM) How’d you get into Lord of the Rings?? I feel so left out of stuff, and there are people who care so deeply about things that came to me late and I get confused/a little angry about my lack of exposure. I didn’t know about LotR til the movies! And I know I’m not the only person, but I dunno, there’s something that bothers me about being left out lol Tim: (12:56PM) Hahaha, I only got into it because of the movies and then I really dove into the books. I watched that first movie every day for a whole summer when the dvds came out. Haven’t read them in a while, so I don’t feel like an intense fan anymore. I feel that way about most fandoms now. There’s so much to keep up with. Mychal: (12:56PM) Ok this makes me feel better Tim: (12:58PM) What fandoms did you dive into as a kid? Mychal: (1:02PM) Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles is probably the closest, but my fandom of things has always been personal and not communal. But that’s something else I’ve tried to work out in therapy — this sense that the things I like can’t be shared/aren’t of interest to anyone else. Anyway, even with TMNT, it wasn’t like I went and got the comics and can tell you all the different backstories and all that. I never deep dived on that way. But I loved em, still do, and it’s probably the second most noteworthy thing people know about me besides my sneakers Tim: (1:06PM) You saying that is a very full circle moment for me. Before we met, our friend Jesse mentioned your piece about Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles’ being a classic NYC film, and THAT’S why I started following you on twitter (1:06PM) What is it about the Ninja Turtles that you connected with?
Read Mychal Denzel Smith’s piece for Hell Gate here:
Mychal: (1:10PM) Obviously I’m saying this as an adult, and as a kid I probably would’ve just said I loved the karate and the silliness of seeing a big turtle, but I think it has to do with this sense of always feeling just outside of normal. The turtles can walk, talk, eat pizza, whatever, but no matter what normal, or even heroic!, things they do they’re always gotta catch the look of “you know you’re a turtle, right?” (1:11PM) I felt that way as a kid, and still do somewhat as a man adult. I can put on the costume of normalcy, but I still think everyone is looking at me and thinking “you know you don’t fit in, don’t you?” Tim: (1:16PM) How much of that feeling do you think is self imposed? That’s something I struggle with as well. Mychal: (1:19PM) Pretty much all of it is self imposed, because the evidence in front of me—a loving partner, close friends, a solid writing career—all say otherwise. Maybe I don’t fit in everywhere, but who does? I fit where I’m supposed to tho, among the people who get me. And somehow that voice still persists “but what if you actually don’t? When does it all fall apart?” Tim: (1:22PM) Maybe it’s connected to that ability to blend into the background and make others comfortable. Does socializing exhaust you at all? Mychal: (2:14PM) Completely! And I went through this phase when I first got to NYC where I was out socializing all the time, because I felt like I had to—professionally and also because I finally got to a big city, I needed to really love that big city life. But I was so fucking exhausted all the time, really wanting to curl up in a ball and have my space to myself and not be seen and not feel like I had to perform for other people (2:17PM) I’m way more judicious about my time and who I spend it with now. Which goes back to something you said about when we met, it was like we had already been friends we just were catching up on the meeting each other part, and that’s really all I’m making space for now, that kind of feeling Tim: (2:50PM) What I used to love about standup is that in order to do it, you have to socialize. It was like a hack for making it fun and pointed. Way more difficult to figure out that balance now that I’m not doing it as much. I call the way we met “tortilla chip friendship." The unique bond that only happens with the people at the party who linger around the bowl of chips to riff. (2:52PM) I keep thinking about how your writing process is like attacking the page. That’s a lot like what you have to do on stage. As a mostly quiet kid who tended to blend into the background, the joy of telling a good joke was that feeling of “I definitely said something and I know that people heard it because now they’re laughing.” Mychal: (2:53PM) Again, another book idea for you, this time self-help, “Tortilla Chip Friendship: A Guide to Making Friends in your 30s and Beyond” [Tim gives this an iPhone "HaHa"] Tim: (2:54PM) Do you think that the most definitive form of whatever you’re feeling is via words on a page? Mychal: (2:55PM) Did you ever have a desire to be the center of attention? (2:56PM) [Regarding Tim's last question.] Most definitely, it’s the most thought out, the most considered, the most self argued… it doesn’t go on the page unless I feel it and know it 115% (2:56PM) But then… it’s really only true for that moment Tim: (3:02PM) I have a very intense love/hate relationship with attention. Embarrassingly, I think it connects to the fact that I have hazel eyes. Had way too much attention because of that as a kid. Part of me loved it. Part me hated it. And in terms of writing and words — I always felt like I couldn’t express myself in the moment when it came to actual emotions. (3:02PM) What was your friend circle growing up? --> MYCHAL DIRECTLY RESPONDS TO THIS TEXT LATER @ 4:43PM SAYING:"Nah, I completely get that, I feel like it becomes “I want the attention, but I only want it on my own terms" Mychal: (4:44PM) I don’t know that I’d say I had a circle of friends until recently. As a kid I didn’t develop any close friendships Tim: (5:26PM) Why do you think that was? I had some close friendships but went to separate schools than everyone from elementary, middle school, and high school so it’s kinda hard for my brain to connect it all. Also, I very rarely ever had friends over! I’m still really bad at that! So friends were always in the separate world of school Mychal: (6:26PM) I didn’t invite a friend over to my house until 2019! Full grown 30 something year old man, I made a whole thing out of it with my friends and talked it through in therapy (6:27PM) For me it was just this inevitability that if someone got to know me well enough they were going to judge and then reject me, so why go through all that, make the decision for them and keep ‘em at arms length Tim: (6:40PM) Hahaha, I used to joke that I was a robot and that when my friends dropped me off, I just powered down (6:41PM) “Why even go through all that” was my mantra in high school (6:41PM) How long have you been in therapy? Mychal: (8:00PM) I went for the first time 15 years ago, then back in 2018 for a while, then again last year, but haven’t started back up just yet after taking some time off the be with the baby Tim: (8:52PM) You listing that information would be a horrible way to end this interview (8:54PM) What do you think you got out of each burst of therapy? Mychal: (8:56PM) That’s my bad! I could’ve easily said more, I didn’t have to literally answer the question and nothing else (I make for a bad interview) Tim: (8:57PM) Hahaha, no, I was just thinking “what if I never responded and that was the end?” --> MYCHAL DIRECTLY RESPONDS TO THIS TEXT LATER @ 8:58PM SAYING: "I think we could have sold it as s Sopranos style ending" [Tim gives this an iPhone "HaHa"] (8:59PM) "As a*" Mychal: (8:58PM) First time I got a diagnosis—general anxiety, depression. Second time I briefly saved a relationship that I then proceeded to ruin anyway, but also an understanding of how tough difficult emotions are for me. Most recent time I was finding some acceptance of imperfection Tim: (9:01PM) Do you like the mood that therapy sessions leave you in? Mychal: (9:04PM) Immediately after, no, it sucks, it makes me deeply uncomfortable, but I appreciate it later, when I feel like I can see through the fog of my emotions Tim: (9:11PM) Yeah, I understand that. Though, I do kind of enjoy a good melancholy feeling (9:12PM) Do you think you communicate with your therapist the same way you attack the page? Mychal: (9:19PM) Not quite the same, but it does take some intentionality to *not* think “I need to make therapy productive” like I need to manufacture a breakthrough to justify doing therapy Tim: (9:32PM) Well, I think we’re reaching the end. This is the part where I reveal I’ve been a robot the entire time (9:32PM) Just kidding (9:32PM) Or am I? Mychal: (9:33PM) AI has already taken your job [Tim gives this an iPhone "HaHa"] Tim: (9:33PM) This has been fun! I’m glad you agreed to do it Mychal: (9:34PM) I’m glad you asked! This was fun and a good substitute for the therapy I haven’t been going to [Tim gives this an iPhone "❤️"]
END OF INTERVIEW
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Be on the look out for an interview with Ian Abramson soon!
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